Xiaomi Mi 5 spotted on GFXbench, 3GB RAM, 64GB ROM in tow


It’s becoming more and more clear that there will indeed be two versions of the Xiaomi Mi 5 at launch, which is scheduled for later this month.

After its rear panel leaked out, the Mi 5 was just spotted on benchmarking database GFXbench. The listing on the site gives yet another peek at the spec sheet of the phone… let us take a look.

Screen Shot 2016-02-05 at 2.08.30 AM_result

First and foremost, what would as sweet as dessertย to Xiaomi fans’ tastebuds is the inclusion of Android 6.0 Marshmallow. While not having Android 6.0 would be an exception normally, Xiaomi are known to be slow with Android upgrades (while MIUI takes care of the features).

Moving on, the listing confirms that the phone will have a 1920 x 1080p display. GFXbench states that the Mi 5 will have a 5.7-inch display, but the database is known to have a hit-or-miss relation with screen sizes.

Other things that the benchmark database listing confirms is 64GB ROM (this will most likely not be part of the standard phone), NFC, and the aforementioned.

You can find more Xiaomi Mi 5 related news on GizChina here.

Thanks for the tip,ย Peter Szakos

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276 Comments

  1. Stef
    February 4, 2016

    Underachieving.

    Performance wise the amount of ram is more important than the SoC in question. At this point most of Android is Ram bottlenecked, so you can put one gazillion of Ghz to it and it would hardly be that much faster. Couple it with 6GB-8GB of RAM and see it take flight…

    Unless you’re gaming of course. But gamers are (and always were) a category in on themselves…

    • kab
      February 5, 2016

      Hey if the guy loves his gaming so much, go buy an xbox or pswhatever.
      Its a phome first, remember that. You domt buy a honda sedan to go to war. You buy a tank.
      My two cents.

      • Stef
        February 5, 2016

        I don’t like games in phones … they won’t benefit from extra ram anyway. Smoothness on the other hand … that’s another story altogether.

  2. Adam Irvine
    February 4, 2016

    Wow 2 lots of RAM totalling 67GB, that’s just nuts!!!

    ***CORRECT THE TITLE***

    ๐Ÿ™‚

  3. Nolan
    February 4, 2016

    3 GB Ram in a 2016 flagship? Is this a joke?
    I’ll probably wait for a phone with 6 GB Ram. (Vivo?)

    Heavy multi-taskers + gamers like me are just about *getting by* with 4GB Ram in early 2016. Moreover, the upcoming A-list gaming titles are going to use even better quality textures and intensely demanding visual effects, which demand not only a powerful CPU + GPU, but oodles of memory.

    This obviously is not going to be a pinnacle crossing, built for compute and gaming device. More like a somewhat decent upgrade for buzinezz folkz running scribbling appz and some Facebook, Whatspp and the occasional Angry Birds….

    • Solitude
      February 4, 2016

      You really want desktop-grade power in your mobile phone? I’m just happy with my basic UMI even in 2016 ….lol.

      ๐Ÿ˜€

      • Stef
        February 4, 2016

        It’s not “Desktop grade”, btw. Desktops (Windows Desktop I presume) are not comparable to phones. Phones are using linux kernel so they *need* much more ram for its normal operations and speed.

        Desktops have a “pagefile”, so actually need less for simple use. It’s ridiculous that phones should have less RAM than an average laptop, especially flagships like MI5 …

        • POY
          February 4, 2016

          “Phones are using linux kernel so they *need* much more ram ”

          This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

          • MaxPower
            February 4, 2016

            I’m still laughing at it.

            • Stef
              February 4, 2016

              You probably don’t know of ram caching. BTW I precisely talk about simple use (in Windows computers).

              It’s funny BTW, since I’m probably one of the few in here to use Linux professionally. Most of you are Windows users so you don’t know what I’m talking about…

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              I sent your assumptions that I use windows directly to > /dev/null.

              You are comparing apples with pears when you bring Linux, Windows and Android on the same table.

            • February 4, 2016

              These are my recommendations for his next Smartphone:

              32GB RAM
              Trideca-core (30 cores) SoC @ 4.0GHz in 0.5nm process tech (or better still, a Server grade multi-core CPU)
              64TB ROM
              5.5″ Display with 20K resolution
              GPU with 16GB VRAM for pixel crunching on the 20K display

              With that spec, even the Linux kernel will have to think twice before gulping the RAM.

              He thinks he is the only Linux user in this community. Most of us here use both Linux, Mac OS X and Windows for different tasks. Talking all geeky even when he doesnt understand a lot of the technicalities involved in the resulting speed of devices.

            • Stef
              February 4, 2016

              My main phone has 2GB of Ram. All I was saying is that more Ram would benefit, more CPU power less so (although it’s welcome).

              You GOTTA admit that 3gb is too little for a $600 phone, especially one that runs the relatively memory hungry MiUI

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              Iphones runs smoothly with 1GB … Just saying

            • balcobomber25
              February 4, 2016

              I have never seen this side of you! You are owning people today, usually your the docile swan of this group and I am the angry bear who fights with everyone.

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              Nah, I’m debating over something, mostly over that “need”
              I don’t agree that android needs more RAM, it might hypothetically benefit of it, but not need for sure

            • balcobomber25
              February 4, 2016

              I would say that in 2016 on Android people need at least 2GB of RAM, but anything beyond that depends on usage. I had this same argument with him the other day.

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              Agree, 2gb is the median value (of 2016 like you correctly pointed)
              Considering the Apps, the average use and where is android now everything above 3GB is pure marketing (from a Mediatek fanboy)

            • balcobomber25
              February 4, 2016

              Could agree more, 3-4GB is more than most people will ever need on Android right now. (from an Elephone fanboy)

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              You Elephone and me Doogee (Rosalia is actually my wife)

            • Alexis T
              February 5, 2016

              Are you planning on feeding the longest gizchina thread with balco and stef ?

              BTW i agree with the “3GB is ideal for a 2016 phone, 8GB is marketing” part.

              Even if i’m not a reference in knowing how different OS load and free RAM, I can’t really see what anyone can load in 8GB RAM from android apps functionalities…

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              ” I can’t really see what anyone can load in 8GB RAM from android apps functionalities”

              Basically everything you do on your phone. It will become a ramdisk of sorts. God why is it so hard for you people to understand this, it’s a simple argument. The only reason that it became so long is because you pull figures out of a hat.

              For example the 3GB is completely arbitrary. Have you actually measured it? Because I bet you you are bottlenecked and your emmc storage works ALL the time. Use an 8GB android device , see how everything happens instantaneously and then tell me 3GB is enough”

            • Alexis T
              February 11, 2016

              I always have free RAM (400-500 Mo out of 2Go) because i regularly kill unused apps. Why ? Because many apps operate background and eat battery like fucking cancer, and because i’m some kind of optimization freak (like a japanese blacksmith with his steel or a psycho milf on a diet with her calories).

              This allows me to have clean RAM, low battery consumption and still sync my personal and professional mails/calendar all day long without the fear of having 5% battery left @10PM.

              Your conception of RAM usage would lead us to build phones with as much RAM as ROM. I still don’t get it.

              BTW sorry for this late reply ^^

            • Stef
              February 11, 2016

              Backgrounding is part of an app’s lifecycle. Part of an app’s optimization is not to kill battery while it’s on background, in fact there are dedicated methods for that alone.

              Most Google services actually don’t (use much battery) even though they’re constantly on the background (you still get better battery if you uninstall them, but not by much).

              So it is true that cannot not lose battery while having apps in the background. What is also true is that it doesn’t have to be significant (the battery loss I mean). Say, an extra 10% between charges.

              Also you have to account how much battery you actually save by not calling the CPU/SoC all the time by having the app on the background. The gains are not as a great as to counteract the lost battery from “backgrounding” but enough to offset its “sting”.

              All in all, backgrounding -ideally- leads to a smoother experience. It’s one of the primary advantages of android over iOS and it saddens me that people often don’t take advantage on it when they use a “roomy” phone (say 4GB of RAM).

              Rogue apps of course may kill you battery, so it’s better to kill those in any case. Google -however- recommends never to kill any apps. So this “RAM as ROM” concept is very much in the intentions of Google as well.

              I suspect the reason that they’re so conservative with RAM size in their devices (they’re usually the last to adopt the larger sizes), is because they have yet to bring under control some of the emergent problems (not ideal RAM management is one, trespassing the OOM values slowing down the phone; battery leaks is the other).

              But eventually and increasingly that’s where we’re moving: “RAM as ROM” while you’re operating your phone…

            • Stef
              February 4, 2016

              Sorry for getting into your conversation but the figure you use is clearly pulled out of a hat. *Test* your beliefs, you’re often wrong.

              BTW I’m willing to to bet all your phones are around the OOM limit of open apps at the end of the day…

            • balcobomber25
              February 5, 2016

              My believes are based entirely on testing. At the end of the say my phone is usually at around 1.5GB of RAM used. Not even close to OOM.

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              Yeah, 1.5GB is way too much, you must be using half an app or most probably kill your apps from the recents panel. It would be interesting to see a long term statistic of it, since it is very possible that it happened because a large app was killed last.

              Lastly I hope you’re not using Samsung ’cause Samsung is known to be very stringent with their killing behavior (or rather very liberal).

            • balcobomber25
              February 5, 2016

              1.5 out of 3GB…

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              Yeah, my phone boots at 1GB utilization, add the sync services it gets close to the 1.3GB mark just for being there … So if your phone is anything like mine you mean to tell me that you use one app the whole day long, or many mini ones . I mean the math does not add up (that’s why I said you must be using half an app during the day). Either your phones kills all background apps on sight (only leaving the foreground one dealing with ram), or you kill your background apps by swiping them off of the screen.

              Honestly it’s hard for me to believe that your phone operates at 1.5gb of ram the whole day… Still I would honestly be interested to a log. If indeed your phone only utilizes so little ram it goes counter with ALL my observations, I would be happy to be proven wrong, if only by one sample…

            • MaxPower
              February 5, 2016

              Stef, please explain me why killing an app seems such awful thing to you?
              I use a navigation app in the morning and then when I came back home I don’t need it anymore. Guess what I do?
              I kill it.
              What’s the deal on keeping that App to occupy RAM?

              Real life and experiments are two different things

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              If you actually had the memory to house it, why kill even that? The next morning it would instantly load and choose a new direction.

              It saves time not to to kill apps (if you have the memory size for them). BTW Google advice’s against it, they want us to let memory management do the killing.

              Having said the above it’s preferable to kill it nowadays so that to make space for other apps, but again, that’s all because you don’t have some ridiculously big amount of ram.

            • MaxPower
              February 6, 2016

              So for the same logic I should keep with PC on all day long so I don’t have to wait for booting the next morning.

            • Stef
              February 6, 2016

              A phone is on all day long, ram is an always-on component so you don’t use extra power to have it filled with relevant information instead of irrelevant. Like you said “unused ram is useless ram”. It will helps with your battery if your CPU only speak with ram if needed instead of the storage (less “roads to travel”, storage rarely needs to consume any battery, etc)

            • MaxPower
              February 6, 2016

              You still didn’t get my point.
              Mine was an hyperbole.

              Keeping a service/app/program running to save those 2-3 seconds to open it again isn’t (in my opinion) smart

              You don’t know how that program could behave, there are good chances that it could not go to background, that could keep caching junk, that could keep the CPU working.

              Even Big enterprise Linux server kill services that are not required at that certain time, doing this way they don’t have to reboot the whole system frequently (which still happens once in a while, rarely, but still happens)

              RandomAccessMemory is not meant for the use you’re suggesting
              But hey, everybody uses his phone differently. Fair enough

            • Stef
              February 6, 2016

              Yeah, that was the conversation I had with Lazar. And there’s solution for that too. Once a week android can drop long-ran processes (as I’m sure -in fact it does anyway).

              The fact that memory was not build to play the role of storage doesn’t mean that it can’t eventually be that (for more things than one).

              For example now that RAM becomes cheaper and cheaper and it can finally house most of users’ processes that’s a very real use-case that is going to solve a million problems (the need for expensive storage, or for bigger batteries, etc).

              So yeah, I’m not saying that RAM should become a RAMdisk, but rather play a much bigger role. The experiment that I’m telling people to try is to install RemixOS on a 8GB+ PC and see how FAR faster Android becomes …

              Truth is that Android is a “consumption OS”. It needs fast forms of storage more than it needs fast processing.

              In fact in anything *other* than games a CPU mostly loads and unloads stuff from memory, it’s seriously underused, especially if you have great amounts of RAM.

              I hope I’m *now* understood instead of misunderstood (as I initially was).

              BTW it’s not just 1 second. It’s 1+ seconds times a thousands, because during the day you load and unload stuff from/to memory ALL-the-time because of RAM limitations that modern phones have.

            • MattD
              February 6, 2016

              Haven’t you ever seen the tv show “person of interest”?! Programs can be a conscious, living thing! Killing them is awful indeed!

              Liek if u kry evritiem :'(

            • MaxPower
              February 6, 2016

              I have not watched it.
              Having a little one means that we can only watch cartoons lately.
              Ask me about Paw Patrol,Chugginton, and Peppa Pig and i can tell you everything!

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              BTW, before the Meizu MX5 you had a MI4, Nubia Z7… All Mediatek phones right?

            • balcobomber25
              February 4, 2016

              As you know I have used many phones over the year but ones I actually owned long term are:

              Meizu MX5 – MTK X10
              Xiaomi Mi4 – SD801
              Nubia Z7 – SD801
              Gionee E7 – SD800
              iOcean X8 – MTK 6592? (can’t remember which chip exactly it was)
              Xiaomi Mi3 – SD800
              Nexus 4 – SD S4 Pro
              Blu Life Play – MT6582

              Before the 64 bit chips I was not a fan at all of Mediatek chips, GPS was terrible in them and performance was hit or miss. But with the newest one Mediatek has been excellent.

            • MattD
              February 4, 2016

              This side of Max really fit with his avatar… ?
              “watch out when you talk about linux, I’m mad!” (the pun is actually better in the movie’s original name, something like “…otherwise we get angry”, but i thought no one would have caught the reference, which is already hard to catch by itself ?)

            • MaxPower
              February 5, 2016

              I did… Obviously.
              Maybe people from Germany, France would have gotten as well

            • Bailey
              February 7, 2016

              That’s it i just spat my popcorn out i am laughing so hard right now

            • Stef
              February 4, 2016

              iOS runs completely differently than android. Also it’s a slow operating system. Try to do many things at once and itnwill kill itself. Apple knowingly chose “smoothness” over speed, I prefer speed (actually finishing a a workload first).

            • balcobomber25
              February 4, 2016

              He thinks because he read somewhere that Android and Linux are based on the same kernel they perform exactly the same. And he thinks he is the only one here that ever used Linux. It’s quite hilarious to read some of this comments.

            • Stef
              February 4, 2016

              BTW that’s obviously not what I think. I was speaking about ram management which you sidestepped.

              Constructive trolling I see … once again.

            • MAHOGANY HD
              February 5, 2016

              This is hilarious!

            • Stef
              February 4, 2016

              I’m only comparing their ram management, clearly in fact. In androids and most distros they are clearly alike, in Windows it is not.

              Since you’ve used Linux extensively you should know how much better use of available Ram can happen under a linux machine than under a windows machine.

              The argument that “windows machines don’t need that much ram, therefore android phones shouldn’t”, sounds realistic but actually isn’t at all…

              BTW I own two surface pros. I’ve install RemixOS (android distro) to both and after 2 hours of use the 8gb model was by FAR the fastest experience despite both using the same hardware in everything else (same SSD, both core i5).

              Truth is that Android is always benefitted from more ram, Windows only sometimes (only if you are using specific software that makes use of it). Most people don’t know that, I have to inform them. Trolling don’t help (just run the experiment I wrote about -above-, just see for yourself how absolutely important ram is).

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              None is arguing about the importance of RAM.
              Android and Linux (Unix) have a different memory management (even if they share the same kernel)

              On Linux (and Windows too) when you run out of memory the kernel can either kill the process or dump it to the swap space (pagefile on windows).

              On android instead of the whole image to the persistent space, it only writes a “screenshot” of the important data like GPS coordinates or last URL.

              Swapping on android is different, but it shares the same concept with Unix which is to use as much RAM as possible (because emmc and SD card are too damn slow).

              Now, Michael had also lifted another issue, which is swapping out to background.
              You can’t run every processes on foreground, battery won’t last more than a bunch of minutes.
              When a process is not used then android swaps it out to background freeing memory for the new application that requests it, only at the end it kills the process.

              Now the question:
              What scenario were you referring while saying that android needs 6-8gb of Ram?
              I can’t picture 2-3 apps running on foreground simultaneously that all need 2GB of RAM each.

              The bottleneck of phones is battery first, and then maybe persistent storage, defo not RAM

            • Stef
              February 4, 2016

              Performance wise the bottleneck is ram (I was clearly referring to performance). It’s easy to reproduce now that we have remixOS. Take two devices with the same characteristics except ram. Use them for some hours and see which feels more responsive. BTW I told you how I knew 4GB is not enough (my surface pro experiments).

              Secondly, I was referring to ram caching which is the same mechanism in both android and Linux. BTW you can enable swap too if you’re rooted, but I would advice against it. Ram caching is operative on Windows too, but only for windows components and only minimally supported from 3rd parties. Linux have been built from the ground up with caching in mind. Android too (hence my comparison).

              Thirdly , there is an OOM setting named “open apps”, *there* is where android (literally) stores opened apps that are not in the foreground. You can actually store there as many apps as your ram would let you to (again I refer to remixOS if you want to test it). I’ve managed to store more than 10 apps while using my RemixOS. In fact I had zero loading times when switching apps … Always.

              You have no idea how faster that feels, light years ahead of extra 100mhz or whatever… And those are background open apps so in theory they don’t have to kill the battery. They’re not being swapped either, they just lay dormant to some place of your gargantuan ram storage. If you don’t swap it away using the recents panel or whatever, in theory, will stay there forever.

              So yeah we’re ram bottlenecked as long as just giving 4 extra GB ram to my hardware made it that much faster…

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              Are we still talking of RAM on phones are we? Can you reproduce your experiments on android phones?

              Storing a whole app in RAM is far from being efficient (no mocking, simply my opinion)
              Now imagine a offline GPS app with 1.7GB of maps of the whole USA going on RAM so when you can feel the speed when you open it.

              Truth is that if I go from NYC to Secaucus I only need about 50MB of map’s files and there’s no need to occupy the RAM with the maps of Los Angeles.

              Agree with you with importance of RAM and the more you give it to android the more it uses, but I disagree when you say that there’s “need” of more RAM (4-6 or even 8GB).
              On android the unused RAM is a wasted RAM

            • Stef
              February 4, 2016

              The point of my experiment was to see whether there can truly be unused ram in android and depending of the kind of use this is impossible (at least in phones). I gave my Mi4 to the wife who makes very basic use. I’ve installed a very basic AOSP ROM since she doesn’t care about the camera performance and even with her most basic use, texting mostly, 2.3GB were still occupied at the end of the day. I’m looking to do the same experiment when Google would release a 4GB phone, I’m sure android would find a way to use all of it.

              The reason that I’m referring to the 6-8gb limit was because it was there that I indeed hit a wall. After a day of use my Remixed surface pro had almost 2GB or ram free. That’s the first time that I see Android not using all available ram (as available I call the total ram sans the amount reserved from android through the oom values). So it’s not out of a hat, it’s a real hard number that I found out of experimentation, granted I did not make a hard use, other people’s limit would be even further than that.

              Certainly 3GB is not enough though if my wife can top it (and probably 4 isn’t either)…

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              2,3GB at the end of the day means that she can’t top it.
              Because in that count you have to put also the unnecessary old data that android still kept in there because it didn’t even get close to the limit to start cleaning up some space to give it to a newer task.
              Once you get to 3GB then Android is smart enough to erase the old unused data to free up room for the new process.

              To make an analogy:
              When I start to collect too much junk I think it’s time to get rid of it, you might find the solution on buying another shed.
              Different opinion I guess.

              In one of your previous comments you said that MIUI is heavy on RAM.
              MIUI behaviour follows the Android philosophy, the more data you store on RAM the faster and more efficient will me.
              People don’t realize that MIUI has a security center (antivirus), a cloud service with backup running at startup and many other services that AOSP doesn’t have, but they see this discrepancy of RAM as an issue.

            • Stef
              February 4, 2016

              2.7gb is total. Around the 200mb mark it starts killing “open apps”. Last open app was about 200mb, killed it back to 400 mb free. It’s almost exactly the amount I used to see when I was using the phone too. 2.3gb to 2.5gb in fact was used at all times.

              Try it, no matter how much you load a phone there would always be 200-400mb “free”. Like I said , next phone would be a 4 gig one. I expect it parked at 3.3gigs (at least) even with my wife’s use.

              Depending on how aggressive ram management (oom values) is/are I expect all people to have a couple hundred MBs “free” at the end of each day. Hence why I think that to be the performance bottleneck of most/all phones. The effect is universal.

            • Lazar Prodanovic
              February 5, 2016

              What are you talking about? Swap is not used on Android. Even if you enable & use it there are some limitations that don’t make it charming & won’t work as they do on Linux.

            • MaxPower
              February 5, 2016

              That’s exactly that I said, swap is used on Linux where the whole page is written on persistent, on android only few important data are kept.

              I was arguing with him about the difference between android and Linux because he thinks is the same

            • Lazar Prodanovic
              February 5, 2016

              Well there is lot of differences between Tham & I named up one of them. ?

            • MaxPower
              February 5, 2016

              I’d like to know your point of view:
              Do you belong in that category that thinks that 3GB of RAM is not enough in 2016 and we need more and more like 6-8GB?

            • Lazar Prodanovic
              February 5, 2016

              Well it really depends what you gonna do with it. 1.5GB is enough so that it runs properly but if you add a lot’s of space waste framework & stuff & fuck up memory management even 3GB won’t be enoughc (like on S6 with early firmware). As the trend of adding more shits is global (in L. L. material design, floating functions & cetera, on M. Additionally pressure menu’s & other stuff along with trend of denser & denser displays with bigger & bigger assets) i think 2GB will be minimum, 3GB normal and for 2 or 4K display ones 4 or more GB. More RAM certainly won’t hurt you. Yust to remind you how longer browser Facebook session with videos & cetera can suck 4+ GB & to achieve something like that you don’t need to be a rocket scientist.
              Meanwhile I do think that 8GB is currently enough for usual user stuff regardless of platform so a dream come true for me would be a 4GB HMP divided into two GB liquid tank scheduler (for easier understanding let’s say it would act alike L3 cache) & two for GPU buffering backed up by secondary pool of 8GB of slower 3D XPoint RAM (to describe it simply as swap for easier understanding) from 16GB chip wile other 8GB of it would be used for buffering regular NAND. As this approach is currently to expensive we will have to wait more so that it becomes a reality even all described is possible & comercial available right now.

            • balcobomber25
              February 4, 2016

              That is his go to when argue with him, he automatically assumes you use Windows.

            • Wuxia
              February 4, 2016

              Learn basic math before pretending to be an expert on operating systems.

              Apples with Pears (a set of 2 elements) doesn’t have a 1:1 mapping to a set comprising Linux, Windows and Android, which happens to be a set of 3 elements.

              So much for your piping to dev null, tables with fruits atop and authoritative expertise on operating systems’ concepts.

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              I guess you need to learn about the “figure of speech” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

              You might want to look up at ” false analogy ” as well, my 5th grader son did the other day at school.

            • VMortens
              February 5, 2016

              This is classic trolling – and probably biggest EoT ever.
              Eristic – you’re not a champ here …

            • balcobomber25
              February 4, 2016

              I got my popcorn out enjoying this battle royale!

            • Bailey
              February 7, 2016

              ooh what flav sweet or salt?

            • balcobomber25
              February 8, 2016

              sweet all the way for me!

          • Stef
            February 4, 2016

            Do you know how they work in the first place? Trolling should be frowned upon.

            • POY
              February 5, 2016

              Yes I do. If the Linux kernel used more RAM than windows does how come people use Linux for embedded devices with 4mb RAM like routers? You seriously are misguided.

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              I never said that it uses more RAM, I said that it can make use of it (i.e. it doesn’t go to waste)…

            • POY
              February 5, 2016

              >I never said that it uses more RAM

              Uh, this is the exact thing you said:

              >Phones are using linux kernel so they *need* much more ram for its normal operations and speed.

              Stop changing your story

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              I meant that Android utilizes RAM better than Windows, therefore “needs” more (it will use all of it). Not that it is -necessarily- less efficient. You understood what I said the other way around…

            • balcobomber25
              February 5, 2016

              I still use Puppy Linux on an old laptop with 128MB RAM, it runs beautifully.

            • POY
              February 5, 2016

              Yeah exactly I hate how people like him are so confident in how wrong they are

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              And I hate when you read something completely opposite than what I said. I’m going to tell you once again, hopefully you’ll understand it.

              1) Most Linux distributions (not necessarily Android) are more RAM efficient. I never disputed that

              2) Linux distibutions make better use of ram as everything you do is cached in memory.

              So putting 1 and 2 together. Linux can work with less ram, but needs more ram if you want to make complete use of its capabilities (basically building a ramdisk of sorts through caching).

              If I catch you trolling again I’m going to report you. Be warned.

            • balcobomber25
              February 5, 2016

              You’re going to report him for disagreeing with you?

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              He doesn’t disagree, that’s the point, we agree, yet he acts as if we don’t. I’ll report the trolling if it continues…

            • balcobomber25
              February 6, 2016

              You should be careful going down that road. Lot’s of people could argue you are doing the same thing.

            • Stef
              February 6, 2016

              The problem I have with him in particular is that he doesn’t even tries to argue his point, he merely creates a strawman and mercilessly attacks it.

              I don’t do that, I don’t think I have anything to fear.

            • balcobomber25
              February 6, 2016

              He did argue his point, you just don’t agree with it.

            • Stef
              February 6, 2016

              His point is that I believe that Linux is inefficient even after I explained him that that’s not what I believe. Of course I didn’t agree with his assessment, it was a strawman.

              The trolling came that even though I corrected him, (by telling him that I agree that Linux machines are efficient and that he understood what I wrote the other way around), he continued posting that Linux is efficient (yeah I know, duh. I was making a comparison of Windows and Linux ram management, what anything else has to do with anything?

              BTW I account Linux more ram efficient -partly- *exactly* because it needs more ram… It makes better use of it, so…

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              I agree, I never disputed that, the user above -though- thought that that’s exactly what I disputed, I think he’s knowingly trolling though. So please respond to him with care, by our discussions I know you’re more thoughtful than that.

            • balcobomber25
              February 5, 2016

              I don’t think he is trolling at all, I think you have trouble separating the terms need and want.

            • Stef
              February 6, 2016

              In fact I used a very frequent use of the word. The car “needs” petroil, does not imply that it is inefficient in doing so.

              Android can make use of all its ram, the more you give it, the more it will use, so it needs it. Windows Computers are not like that, which was exactly what I was referring to…

              Want can’t be used in this situation. An operating system cannot want anything.

            • balcobomber25
              February 6, 2016

              A consumer can want more than he actually needs.

            • Stef
              February 6, 2016

              Indeed, but I never even tried to argue the point of view of the consumer.

              I only ever argued the pros and cons of different OSes and the way they use the resources. I don’t dabble with opinions only with facts.

              In other words what a consumer wants or needs is irrelevant to me. What is relevant to me is the *fact* that more RAM plays greater role than more processing power in an android system.

              That’s the only angle I ever argued for…

            • balcobomber25
              February 6, 2016

              No you argued specifically that phones need more RAM because they are Linux. That is the exception that he had. Android will perform better with more RAM but it isn’t a need, it is a want. I still use a 1GB Nexus 7 that works fine, it would be faster with more but it isn’t a need.

            • Stef
              February 6, 2016

              I argued that Android/Linux need more ram. In my later posts I explained that by that I mean that no matter how much you’ll give it will use it.

              Again operating systems don’t have wants.

              Yes your Nexus 7 works just fine, that was not the implication. The implication is that it would work much better if it had more ram.

              The same cannot be said with a Win98 computer (that’s why it was important that is using Linux’s ram management).

              I was clearly referencing that part by contrasting android, Linux and windows (many people here are Windows users, so they may not know f those).

          • balcobomber25
            February 4, 2016

            I am still laughing at this comment!

    • Stef
      February 4, 2016

      The problem is that by now you don’t have to be heavy multitasker to be bottlenecked by 3GB of Ram.

      Since the release of Lollipop, even minimal use gets you to the 3GB mark and then memory management takes charge of things. When memory management starts routinely closing old apps you *know* you’re RAM bottlenecked and virtually all devices currently are.

      IMO 4GB should be the minimum for a flagship, 6GB the optimum (for 2016 at least)…

      • Nolan
        February 4, 2016

        Brilliantly said.

        However, I can perfectly understand that majority folks do not need this sort of power in their phones, but as an active gamer who spends a decent amount of cash in some of the top games, and as someone who hates background switching / closing of apps, I cannot settle for anything lesser. I need to be able to have almost every installed app running, real-time stuff, while at least 2 online, demanding games can be switched between effortlessly with no surprise closes.The OP2 does this but only *almost*.

        I’ve been on the OP2 for a while now, and can testify that even 4GB Ram can be problematic at times (albeit not *very* frequently).

        • Stef
          February 4, 2016

          Like I said they need it whether they know it or not. It’s right there “virtually all devices currently are RAM bottlenecked”.

          Which means that all flagships go slower than they could, all because they don’t have enough ram even for every day functions (ram management starts killing stuff relatively early on).

          Of course “need” is a relative term. But if you buy a flagship you need the best of the best, 3GB is subpar at this point. It’s what 2GB was in KitKat era and 1GB was in Ice-Cream Sandwich era, *just enough*, certainly not flagship material.

        • jo
          February 4, 2016

          you guys should try to get a life

          • Stef
            February 4, 2016

            More trolling, oh this thread gets perfect all of the sudden. No comments that betray knowledge or understanding, just blind name calling…

        • February 4, 2016

          Maybe you should wait till 2020 and have a phone with 24GB RAM so you can run “VIRTUALLY” all the installed apps in your phone at the same time and no need for background switching.

          Oh and get yourself a multi monitor and plug in your phone there. No need to switch between apps. Just have all of them running at the same time on the multiple displays.

          You want to tell all of us you are the WHAT???

          Really, YOU SHOULD GO GET A LIFE AND QUIT ACTING LIKE A LITTLE KID WHO WANTS THE BEST TOYS THAT DADDY CANNOT AFFORD ๐Ÿ˜›

          • MaxPower
            February 4, 2016

            And without swapping out to background he better keeps his phone plugged in (speaking of bottleneck…)

            • February 4, 2016

              Exactly … LOL

            • Stef
              February 4, 2016

              Actually that’s completely wrong. Caching when done correctly reduces battery consumption. In fact astronomical amounts of ram are *bound* to give you far better battery too.

              The reason is simple: less loading means less CPU cycles wasted to loading and unloading data from/to Ram. In other words whenever you call an app you would directly access the ram with minimal calls to CPU and virtually no calls to storage.

              The problems starts if apps stored in ram continue making calls to CPU for whatever silly reason, but that can be easily solved by some backgrounding mechanism (apps not in the foreground can only make certain calls, say notifications).

              The real problem is data integrity. When Data is stored in Ram for long it gets corrupted. But both can be solved by upgraded testing procedures in app making (tests measuring data longevity should become industry standard), which btw would kill a big bulk of current force closes in android apps. It can also be minimized by using ECC ram like servers currently do which would test for data integrity…

            • Nolan
              February 4, 2016

              Fair explanation, but you do realize that you’re arguing with a crowd (two members in particular), who are:

              1. Clandestine MediaTek Fanboys
              2. Dislike QualComm but will deny it, claiming to be neutral
              3. Feel that only value phone seekers are GizChina’s readership
              4. That everyone is broke (or overspending)
              5. That anyone who doesn’t share their opinions is wrong
              6. That anyone who expects exotic devices is ridiculous
              7. That such discussions should not be a part of GizChina
              8. That we all should be striving to buy crappy, underpowered, middle-tier MediaTek based phones sold as flagships.

              The point is moot Stef.

            • balcobomber25
              February 4, 2016

              You realize everything you just said was complete BS. I can speak for Max because I know his recent phone history and if he was a “Mediatek fanboy” it would be pretty pecuiliar that he owned the following phones:

              Xiaomi Mi4 – SD801
              OP1 (wifes phones) – SD801
              Redmi Note 3 Pro – SD650

              Most of us here aren’t fanboys of Qualcomm or Mediatek, we can appreciate that both have had good and bad chips. You on the other hand are clearly a Qualcomm fanboy it shows in everyone of your comments including the one above.

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              I’m using the OPO, my wife got the IPhone 6 plus now. Lol
              For the rest you’re right, a clear Mediatek fanboy/Qualcomm hater

            • balcobomber25
              February 4, 2016

              You hate Qualcomm so much that you use their devices just so you can make fun of them! That is some hardcore Mediatek fanboyism!

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              Lol

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              I’m assuming you’re referring to me.
              (You did the other day too but then took it back).

              Reading your comment I can easily tell that’s you the one who can’t handle other’s people different opinions.

              I’m not mocking anyone, I’m not using foul language, I’m not arguing over personal things, I’m debating over something in which I have a different opinion, I can also agree with people (I actually did with Stef already) or upvote them.

              I had last year flagship phones (MI4 and OPO) both Qualcomm, and I’ve just got the Note3 PRO (Qualcomm) only because I needed a phone today and not in a month, but it doesn’t mean I won’t get the MI5 (whomever knows me know that I’ll buy it).

              So that list that you made is just ridiculous because facts don’t support your opinion.
              But I respect your opinion about me, clearly wrong, but i still respect it.

            • Nolan
              February 5, 2016

              @disqus_0lJZ8Bi7SK:disqus
              First, I clarified the other day it was a major typo. I mentioned it, twice, so not sure why you took this on you.

              Second, the two people I mentioned earlier comprise an aged senior and his seemingly impoverished friend with extremely poor grammar, writing, humor and opinions.

              You were not a target of that list, although at this point I’m pretty sure you won’t believe this and I’m afraid I can’t convince you. Still, you’re not on my radar at any point, if this helps any, so don’t be too bothered or offended or even concerned with that list.

            • balcobomber25
              February 5, 2016

              I am guessing I am one of those two people, if I am the “aging senior” that is just hilarious, because I am younger than MaxPower. But as posted below here is my phone history of recent:

              Meizu MX5 – MTK X10
              Xiaomi Mi4 – SD801
              Nubia Z7 – SD801
              Gionee E7 – SD800
              iOcean X8 – MTK 6592? (can’t remember which chip exactly it was)
              Xiaomi Mi3 – SD800
              Nexus 4 – SD S4 Pro
              Blu Life Play – MT6582

              For being a MTK fanboy, I sure have owned a lot of Qualcomm devices. The only SoC fanboy here is you.

            • Trayanee
              February 5, 2016

              To be honest, this is probably the only post I see that looks biased and fanboyish. Others are trying to be constructive.

              @Stef> Stop with that soft error nonsense. Everyone knows by know that its only marketing trick to sell overpriced ECC RAM. Sure, hard errors happen, but those happen in SSD, MMC etc. too, but the soft error rate in RAM is like what? 0,0002? Well, that one bit changed once a week is hardly a reason against having data in RAM to be accessed fast enough…

            • MaxPower
              February 4, 2016

              I know that caching prevent consume and while reading and writing from persistent uses more power.
              I was still referring to swap to background.

            • Lazar Prodanovic
              February 5, 2016

              It’s called a fragmentation & it’s tied to memory allocator. Up to 4.4 malloc whose used & it worked fine. From 5.0 new memory allocator is used that theoretically have better performance, smaller fragmentation & group sessions. In practice it still doesn’t work well & have lost of memory leaks (thanks to other software), as much per app group sessions can help to get fragmentation down they will also consume more ram. That much about real practice.
              You get apps crashes not because data is corrupted but because memory allocator is over runned & can’t make a ram reclaim on time (or simply saying bad memory management) so system kills request because if it continues to run & get stuck it will trigger kernel panic (defense mechanism that triggers restart to avoid system freeze). A good memory management will leave enough of ram free for new requests to get loaded directly & avoid reclaims (that cost a lot of time) naturally this is not manageable always. When it gets to data integrity new generations of non violate storage / RAM will help when they finally emerge (like for instance 3D x point). Forget about ECC on small consumer SoC-s it will never happen. Curent RAM uses in SoC-s (DPL DDR3, DDR4) actually consumes a lot of energy so adding more chip’s will actually just increase power consumption (as it always works).

              Base fix for the ram problem is to do a kill of all not crucial apps once a week & second time a simple restart (in intervals between them in 3-4 day’s). Purgable kernel assets can also help a little.

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              I haven’t actually run (too) big programs on android so I wouldn’t know. But I have run them on server boxes, which is why I’ve been using ECC ram there….

              Having said that RAM, scales best when a new node is used (I was not talking of more chips but rather one where more ram was contained). So there’s much greater hope to get big amounts of ram in phones than it is to get server-grade processors. Basically that was part of my rant, I can live with a bit less processing power, but not with less ram.

              BTW having big amounts of ram (also) ensures that memory management would always leave enough ram for new calls, so I fail to see how this becoming priority won’t actually help more problems than one.

              Lastly yeah the malloc issue is a bottleneck of sorts, but scheduling android to kill long-lived apps once a week I won’t think that it will affect every-day performance. Maybe once a week your phone will feel slightly sluggish (until all assets/apps are loaded back to ram). But that would be an one-off thing.

              What happens now, is that this thing happens 20 times a days, certainly it kills a lot more battery, than just having a ram module being “always on” standing there…

            • Lazar Prodanovic
              February 5, 2016

              I ment it will resolve enough memory allocator fragmentation problem.

              About amount of RAM I obviously counted on same or possible amount that can be fit on one chip node so adding more means adding more chips.

              When new non violent memories become reality like for instance 3D XPoint ECC modules will become history. Currently the Intels server 3D XPoint memory modules are announced & shipping to selected costumers.
              Even the speed of 3D XPoint RAM is not on pair with DDR3, 4 it’s more than enough for costumer grade smartphone SoC-s & power requirements are much smaller with density on pair with current NAND nodes. So yes we do need more RAM on every damn machine but requirements ment to achieve this still must be met especially on lo power ones.

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              I meant more in one chip by shrinking the existent ones. In other words instead of hunting 10nm SoCs we’re better off hunting 10nm RAM modules … anyway

              I was merely telling people that it would be more beneficiary to use more ram (therefore use power there), instead of more processing power. It will actually let storage out of the equation for most things and you *know* how slow EMMC storage is, by far the slowest calls to come to completion.

              So my point is “yeah, we need more ram”, but also “we need more ram, more than we need more CPU power”. You’d see people salivating here over the SoC used, but completely ignore that 3GB can actually bottleneck it as it would force it to make the long-round trip (RAM to CPU, CPU to Storage, Storage to RAM, instead of CPU to RAM and RAM to CPU)

            • Lazar Prodanovic
              February 5, 2016

              Well that what we need is better interconnect so that we can use existing caches to the on bord SDRAM better (L2) this is accomplished with last gen of the ARM interconnect that no one still uses. We need more power efficient/faster storage/RAM that is also being accomplished with 3D XPoint & simular non violent RAM solutions that will come. Luckily 3D XPoint is Microns as much as it’s Intels & on current nodes it can scale up to 128GB that can be implemented on mobile SoC.
              Samsung talked about 10nm nodes for SDRAM couple day’s ago. As RAM cells structure is simple it always go ahead of complex SoC-s with lots of complex buildings blocks but don’t expect them in general consumer space in a long time now. It’s best practice when they can follow each other & can be integrated on SoC like HMB for instance. When the requirements are met that we can have lot of fast RAM with small latencies on SoC the new age will begin & it will be used for liquid tank scheduling (something alike Nv tried with Denver but it failed bad as conventional relatively small amount of latency high DDR3 used is not good enough for it).

              Worked with some up to 512 GB equipped scientific server’s in the past.

            • Stef
              February 5, 2016

              Just one point if I may add. While it’s easier to shrink ram, the way people (the public) understands performance makes companies to pay more for SoC RnD/shrinking than memory shrinking.

              So despite having to be one step ahead (memory tech in phones) it often isn’t. Just open your phone and see which component is the most up to date. I bet you it’s the soc because of that ridiculous need of “more power, more cores , arrrggh”, all the while higher tech and more storage is needed for ram.

              I’ve said it in the past, I’ll say it again. Couple a mid range SoC with a “high end” RAM memory setup and you’ll get afar smoother experience in *phones*. Even with the relatively high latency of mobile ram it’s still far and ahead than emmc storage and not having to use it makes all the difference in the world. I’ve actually tried it and saw it with my own eyes.

          • Nolan
            February 4, 2016

            Grow up, and try to be objectively argumentative, which is always welcome. This poor gibberish will embarrass you years from now.

            • February 4, 2016

              There is a difference between “WANTS” and “NEEDS” man. Keep your objective arguments. I am more a realistic person and go with what I find to be realistic and not wish to have aliens from Jupiter prepare and serve my dinner when I know that’s UTTERLY UNREALIZABLE.

              You are here whining about 4GB RAM and stuff, when the mighty iPhone is still using a 2GB RAM and no one is complaining about that.

              Yep, I know your next line of “OBJECTIVE ARGUMENT”… iOS and Android are completely different OS with different kernel.

              I find it completely STUPID that you, in your mighty geekiness does not understand that keeping so many apps in memory affects the overall performance of the device and also drains more power from the limited on being supplied by the battery. You also dont realize that some apps are CPU hogs and will continue to throttle your CPU even when you think you have minimized them into the background.

              Dude, learn to quit (I MEANT QUIT AND NOT MINIMIZE) apps you absolutely dont have any use of at the moment. You cant tell me you will leave a game running in the background for the next 24hrs just because you dont have the time to play it now. And do you think you are the biggest gamer here in GizChina? A lot of us do same too, but dont go about ranting about it.

              We all know that you have your millions of $$ stacked somewhere to purchase your 32GB RAM smartphone. But NO ONE wanna hear about it.

            • Nolan
              February 5, 2016

              – Intermittent all caps doesn’t help

              – I don’t have millions, but just enough to spend on games and good devices

              – I never said I’m the biggest gamer on GizChina (or anywhere else for that matter). I just use my phone primarily for gaming, as odd as that may sound. (No consoles, had a PS1 ages back) And a decent amount of money on IGP.

              – Rant is what you interpret it as. I’m free to expression my opinion however I wish. Don’t like it, scroll past it instead of whining.

              – You don’t want to hear about it, that’s fair enough. Like I said, scroll past it, it’s effortless. But don’t come off a representative for everybody – NO ONE? Don’t think so, just you.

  4. Joel Adames
    February 4, 2016

    EXPOILER ALERT !!!
    I really would like to see a brand have the guts put out to the market A SUPERPHONE like this:

    A. 8gbRam
    B. 128Rom+ Sd-Reader
    C. 1.6pixel.size+OiS+triple.tone+Pdaf+20mpx main camera
    D.1.4pixel.size+pdaf+8mpx+dual.tone front camera
    E. 5000mah+ battery and good system optimization to make at least some good 7-9 OnScreenTime
    F. Rgb led notifications
    G. Good fast and accurate fingerprint reader
    H. FRONT FACING SPEAKERS (2+)
    I. Dedicated 2 stage camera button (great for selfies and stuff)
    J. 5.7″ superAmoled QHD screen and gorillaGlass6
    K. Hi-fi Audio aided by some other software optimization to get great audio
    L. Up-to-date USB tipe-stuff cable tech.
    M. Fast-Charge tech and wireless for those into that.
    N. Backlit buttons if the are present off the screen.
    O. Full networks antennas and WiFi tech and Bluetooth and stuFF for real World Wide use.
    P. Great multicore (8+) GPU chip
    Q. At least a decent SoC to run the show.
    R. Dual boot option, even if not installed at least unlocked bootloader for the owner to do whatever like match Windows 11? and Android 9 hahaha

    OK you got the idea…. Now keep it going with what I missed and feel free to point out a decent price range for such a device including a premium for them on catering to us. I will say $700 dollars.

    • balcobomber25
      February 4, 2016

      $700 would be a down payment for a phone like that lol.

      • Joel Adames
        February 4, 2016

        Could be yup. I think it’s feasible. And would be well deserved ??

    • Alexis T
      February 5, 2016

      What’s with the 8GB RAM ?
      Are you planning on editing 4K video clip while loading porn in your browser and chatting with half ppl on earth ?
      c’mon…

      BTW if you can explain me how you’ll use your 8GB RAM, i’ll take back my lousy comment ๐Ÿ˜‰

      • Stef
        February 5, 2016

        Android caches everything you do … so basically … storage (a ramdisk of shorts).

        I’ve done it already to my “Remixed” Surface Pro 3, it leads to an incredibly fast experience as the EMMC (main storage) is rarely called. Basically it allows for a device to feel faaaar faster.

        It’s not realistic though -for the time being- the technology to put it there is very expensive. 4-6GB is a more realistic goal for current tech.

        • Alexis T
          February 5, 2016

          I get your point, and i too would say 8GB is the best for a tablet. BTW i’m waiting for a reasonably priced Core M / 8GB RAM tablet to buy ASAP (thus allowing me to dump my X98).

          But i think we don’t have the same use of a tablet and a phone, and i’m pretty sure that, if you can point the heaviest RAM usage apps on your tablet, you’ll realize you don’t use them (or use them but not the same way) on your phone.

          hu hu

          • Stef
            February 5, 2016

            You asked in general “what the use of it would be” and I gave you one. Having said that, a lot of people do not go through 8GB of data so it may not benefit them.

            But others possibly do, for example browsing facebook which contains a lot of images, or having a game to the background (and then wanting to return to it without it ever loading again), or browsing the web and have 6 tabs open that you do not want to have them reloaded.

            It *is* possible that if your use is diverse enough to tally up to 8GB of data usage even on a phone. It’s probably not typical (even in my tablet use I could not top the 8GB mark), but not impossible. Maybe he’s one of those users (say uses a diverse amount of apps and he never wants them loading)…

      • Joel Adames
        February 5, 2016

        Hahahaha, there’s no fair explanation to buying a Mercedes-benz over a Kia when you just want to get from point A to point B.

        So this is all a bit of fiction in my list too. Anyways it it was anything it interested you I can see.
        And such a device would be very much future-proof for a fair good 2 to 3 years up the road even if presented late this year like october-november.

        I guess they won’t do it because no company is aiming for a product they can’t overRun next year with something “better”

        Maybe a company like VERTU would do something similar but their price range COULD reach in the tens of thousands .

        Cheers

        • Bailey
          February 7, 2016

          Yes there is a big reason to get a Mercedes-benz over a Kia if you can afford it. Yes both cars will get you to where you want to go but i am betting that they will feel and drive different whilst doing it. And your dream phone would be over $700 because if i convert that to the British pound it only about 482 that is less than the S6 when it came out? yea have to ask what will you be doing with 8gb Ram LOL

  5. Stef
    February 4, 2016

    Underachieving.

    Performance wise the amount of ram is more important than the SoC in question. At this point most of Android is Ram bottlenecked, so you can put one gazillion of Ghz to it and it would hardly be that much faster. Couple it with 6GB-8GB of RAM and see it take flight…

    Unless you’re gaming of course. But gamers are (and always were) a category in on themselves…

    • Guest
      February 5, 2016

      Hey if the guy loves his gaming so much, go buy an xbox or pswhatever.
      Its a phome first, remember that. You domt buy a honda sedan to go to war. You buy a tank.
      My two cents.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      I don’t like games in phones … they won’t benefit much from extra ram anyway. Smoothness on the other hand … that’s another story altogether (ran RemixOS with 8GB of ram the other day, I couldn’t believe how fast Android *actually* can be).

  6. Adam Irvine
    February 4, 2016

    Wow 2 lots of RAM totalling 67GB, that’s just nuts!!!

    ***CORRECT THE TITLE***

    ๐Ÿ™‚

  7. Guest
    February 4, 2016

    3 GB Ram in a 2016 flagship? Is this a joke?
    I’ll probably wait for a phone with 6 GB Ram. (Vivo?)

    Heavy multi-taskers + gamers like me are just about *getting by* with 4GB Ram in early 2016. Moreover, the upcoming A-list gaming titles are going to use even better quality textures and intensely demanding visual effects, which demand not only a powerful CPU + GPU, but oodles of memory.

    This obviously is not going to be a pinnacle crossing, built for compute and gaming device. More like a somewhat decent upgrade for buzinezz folkz running scribbling appz and some Facebook, Whatspp and the occasional Angry Birds….

    • Guest
      February 4, 2016

      You really want desktop-grade power in your mobile phone? I’m just happy with my basic UMI even in 2016 ….lol.

      ๐Ÿ˜€

    • Stef
      February 4, 2016

      The problem is that by now you don’t have to be heavy multitasker to be bottlenecked by 3GB of Ram.

      Since the release of Lollipop, even minimal use gets you to the 3GB mark and then memory management takes charge of things. When memory management starts routinely closing old apps you *know* you’re RAM bottlenecked and virtually all devices currently are.

      IMO 4GB should be the minimum for a flagship, 6GB the optimum (for 2016 at least)… I guess (low ram) it’s part of some planned obsolescence scheme…

    • Stef
      February 4, 2016

      It’s not “Desktop grade”, btw. Desktops (Windows Desktop I presume) are not comparable to phones. Phones are using linux kernel so they *need* much more ram for its normal operations and speed.

      Desktops have a “pagefile”, so actually need less for simple use. It’s ridiculous that phones should have less RAM than a low end laptop, especially flagships like MI5 …

    • Guest
      February 4, 2016

      Brilliantly said.

      However, I can perfectly understand that majority folks do not need this sort of power in their phones, but as an active gamer who spends a decent amount of cash in some of the top games, and as someone who hates background switching / closing of apps, I cannot settle for anything lesser. I need to be able to have almost every installed app running, real-time stuff, while at least 2 online, demanding games can be switched between effortlessly with no surprise closes.The OP2 does this but only *almost*.

      I’ve been on the OP2 for a while now, and can testify that even 4GB Ram can be problematic at times (albeit not *very* frequently).

    • Stef
      February 4, 2016

      Like I said they need it whether they know it or not. It’s right there “virtually all devices currently are RAM bottlenecked”.

      Which means that all flagships go slower than they could, all because they don’t have enough ram even for every day functions (ram management starts killing stuff relatively early on).

      Of course “need” is a relative term. But if you buy a flagship you need the best of the best, 3GB is subpar at this point. It’s what 2GB was in KitKat era and 1GB was in Ice-Cream Sandwich era, *just enough*, certainly not flagship material.

    • POY
      February 4, 2016

      “Phones are using linux kernel so they *need* much more ram ”

      This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

    • MaxPower
      February 4, 2016

      I’m still laughing at it.

    • Stef
      February 4, 2016

      Do you know how they work in the first place? Trolling should be frowned upon.

    • Stef
      February 4, 2016

      You probably don’t know of ram/disk caching. BTW I precisely talk about simple use (in Windows computers).

      It’s funny BTW, since I’m probably one of the few in here to use Linux professionally. Most of you are Windows users so you don’t know what I’m talking about…

    • Guest
      February 4, 2016

      you guys should try to get a life

    • Stef
      February 4, 2016

      More trolling, oh this thread gets perfect all of the sudden. No comments that betray knowledge or understanding, just blind name calling…

    • Michael Ogbonnaya
      February 5, 2016

      Maybe you should wait till 2020 and have a phone with 24GB RAM so you can run “VIRTUALLY” all the installed apps in your phone at the same time and no need for background switching.

      Oh and get yourself a multi monitor and plug in your phone there. No need to switch between apps. Just have all of them running at the same time on the multiple displays.

      You want to tell all of us you are the WHAT???

      Oh and I forgot, why are you guys only concerned about RAM? How about a Trideca-core SoC @ 4.0GHz in 0.5nm process tech (or better still, a Server grade multi-core CPU) to handle your stupid multi-tasking needs?

      Really, YOU SHOULD GO GET A LIFE AND QUIT ACTING LIKE A LITTLE KID WHO WANTS THE BEST TOYS THAT DADDY CANNOT AFFORD TO BUY ๐Ÿ˜›

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      I sent your assumptions that I use windows directly to > /dev/null.

      You are comparing apples with pears when you bring Linux, Windows and Android on the same table.

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      And without swapping out to background he better keeps his phone plugged in (speaking of bottleneck…)

    • Michael Ogbonnaya
      February 5, 2016

      These are my recommendations for his next Smartphone:

      32GB RAM
      Trideca-core (30 cores) SoC @ 4.0GHz in 0.5nm process tech (or better still, a Server grade multi-core CPU)
      64TB ROM
      5.5″ Display with 20K resolution
      GPU with 16GB VRAM for pixel crunching on the 20K display

      With that spec, even the Linux kernel will have to think twice before gulping the RAM.

      He thinks he is the only Linux user in this community. Most of us here use both Linux, Mac OS X and Windows for different tasks. Talking all geeky even when he doesnt understand a lot of the technicalities involved in the resulting speed of devices.

    • Michael Ogbonnaya
      February 5, 2016

      Exactly … LOL

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      I’m only comparing their ram management, clearly in fact. In androids and most distros they are clearly alike, in Windows it is not.

      Since you’ve used Linux extensively you should know how much better use of available Ram can happen under a linux machine than under a windows machine.

      The argument that “windows machines don’t need that much ram, therefore android phones shouldn’t”, sounds realistic but actually isn’t at all…

      BTW I own two surface pros. I’ve install RemixOS (android distro) to both and after 2 hours of use the 8gb model was by FAR the fastest experience despite both using the same hardware in everything else (same SSD, both core i5).

      Truth is that Android is always benefitted from more ram, Windows only sometimes (only if you are using specific software that makes use of it). Most people don’t know that, I have to inform them. Trolling don’t help (just run the experiment I wrote about -above-, just see for yourself how absolutely important ram is).

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      My main phone has 2GB of Ram. All I was saying is that more Ram would benefit, more CPU power less so (although it’s welcome).

      You GOTTA admit that 3gb is too little for a $600 phone, especially one that runs the relatively memory hungry MiUI

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      None is arguing about the importance of RAM.
      Android and Linux (Unix) have a different memory management (even if they share the same kernel)

      On Linux (and Windows too) when you run out of memory the kernel can either kill the process or dump it to the swap space (pagefile on windows).

      On android instead of the whole image to the persistent space, it only writes a “screenshot” of the important data like GPS coordinates or last URL.

      Swapping on android is different, but it shares the same concept with Unix which is to use as much RAM as possible (because emmc and SD card are too damn slow).

      Now, Michael had also lifted another issue, which is swapping out to background.
      You can’t run every processes on foreground, battery won’t last more than a bunch of minutes.
      When a process is not used then android swaps it out to background freeing memory for the new application that requests it, only at the end it kills the process.

      Now the question:
      What scenario were you referring while saying that android needs 6-8gb of Ram?
      I can’t picture 2-3 apps running on foreground simultaneously that all need 2GB of RAM each.

      The bottleneck of phones is battery first, and then maybe persistent storage, defo not RAM

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      That is his go to when argue with him, he automatically assumes you use Windows.

    • Guest
      February 5, 2016

      Learn basic math before pretending to be an expert on operating systems.

      Apples with Pears (a set of 2 elements) doesn’t have a 1:1 mapping to a set comprising Linux, Windows and Android, which happens to be a set of 3 elements.

      So much for your piping to dev null, tables with fruits atop and authoritative expertise on operating systems’ concepts.

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      He thinks because he read somewhere that Android and Linux are based on the same kernel they perform exactly the same. And he thinks he is the only one here that ever used Linux. It’s quite hilarious to read some of this comments.

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      Iphones runs smoothly with 1GB … Just saying

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      Actually that’s completely wrong. Caching when done correctly reduces battery consumption. In fact astronomical amounts of ram are *bound* to give you far better battery too.

      The reason is simple: less loading means less CPU cycles wasted to loading and unloading data from/to Ram. In other words whenever you call an app you would directly access the ram with minimal calls to CPU and virtually no calls to storage.

      The problems starts if apps stored in ram continue making calls to CPU for whatever silly reason, but that can be easily solved by some backgrounding mechanism (apps not in the foreground can only make certain calls, say notifications).

      The real problem is data integrity. When Data is stored in Ram for long it gets corrupted. But both can be solved by upgraded testing procedures in app making (tests measuring data longevity should become industry standard), which btw would kill a big bulk of current force closes in android apps. It can also be minimized by using ECC ram like servers currently do which would test for data integrity…

    • Guest
      February 5, 2016

      Grow up, and try to be objectively argumentative, which is always welcome. This poor gibberish will embarrass you years from now.

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      I got my popcorn out enjoying this battle royale!

    • Guest
      February 5, 2016

      Fair explanation, but you do realize that you’re arguing with a crowd (two members in particular), who are:

      1. Clandestine MediaTek Fanboys
      2. Dislike QualComm but will deny it, claiming to be neutral
      3. Feel that only value phone seekers are GizChina’s readership
      4. That everyone is broke (or overspending)
      5. That anyone who doesn’t share their opinions is wrong
      6. That anyone who expects exotic devices is ridiculous
      7. That such discussions should not be a part of GizChina
      8. That we all should be striving to buy crappy, underpowered, middle-tier MediaTek based phones sold as flagships.

      The point is moot Stef.

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      I am still laughing at this comment!

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      You realize everything you just said was complete BS. I can speak for Max because I know his recent phone history and if he was a “Mediatek fanboy” it would be pretty pecuiliar that he owned the following phones:

      Xiaomi Mi4 – SD801
      OP1 (wifes phones) – SD801
      Redmi Note 3 Pro – SD650

      Most of us here aren’t fanboys of Qualcomm or Mediatek, we can appreciate that both have had good and bad chips. You on the other hand are clearly a Qualcomm fanboy it shows in everyone of your comments including the one above.

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      I guess you need to learn about the “figure of speech” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

      You might want to look up at ” false analogy ” as well, my 5th grader son did the other day at school.

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      I have never seen this side of you! You are owning people today, usually your the docile swan of this group and I am the angry bear who fights with everyone.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      iOS runs completely differently than android. Also it’s a slow operating system. Try to do many things at once and itnwill kill itself. Apple knowingly chose “smoothness” over speed, I prefer speed (actually finishing a a workload first).

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      I know that caching prevent consume and while reading and writing from persistent uses more power.
      I was still referring to swap to background.

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      I’m using the OPO, my wife got the IPhone 6 plus now. Lol
      For the rest you’re right, a clear Mediatek fanboy/Qualcomm hater

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      I’m assuming you’re referring to me.
      (You did the other day too but then took it back).

      Reading your comment I can easily tell that’s you the one who can’t handle other’s people different opinions.

      I’m not mocking anyone, I’m not using foul language, I’m not arguing over personal things, I’m debating over something in which I have a different opinion, I can also agree with people (I actually did with Stef already) or upvote them.

      I had last year flagship phones (MI4 and OPO) both Qualcomm, and I’ve just got the Note3 PRO (Qualcomm) only because I needed a phone today and not in a month, but it doesn’t mean I won’t get the MI5 (whomever knows me know that I’ll buy it).

      So that list that you made is just ridiculous because facts don’t support your opinion.
      But I respect your opinion about me, clearly wrong, but i still respect it.

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      You hate Qualcomm so much that you use their devices just so you can make fun of them! That is some hardcore Mediatek fanboyism!

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      Nah, I’m debating over something, mostly over that “need”
      I don’t agree that android needs more RAM, it might hypothetically benefit of it, but not need for sure

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      Performance wise the bottleneck is ram (I was clearly referring to performance). It’s easy to reproduce now that we have remixOS. Take two devices with the same characteristics except ram. Use them for some hours and see which feels more responsive. BTW I told you how I knew 4GB is not enough (my surface pro experiments).

      Secondly, I was referring to ram caching which is the same mechanism in both android and Linux. BTW you can enable swap too if you’re rooted, but I would advice against it. Ram caching is operative on Windows too, but only for windows components and only minimally supported from 3rd parties. Linux have been built from the ground up with caching in mind. Android too (hence my comparison).

      Thirdly , there is an OOM setting named “open apps”, *there* is where android (literally) stores opened apps that are not in the foreground. You can actually store there as many apps as your ram would let you to (again I refer to remixOS if you want to test it). I’ve managed to store more than 10 apps while using my RemixOS. In fact I had zero loading times when switching apps … Always.

      You have no idea how faster that feels, light years ahead of extra 100mhz or whatever… And those are background open apps so in theory they don’t have to kill the battery. They’re not being swapped either, they just lay dormant to some place of your gargantuan ram storage. If you don’t swap it away using the recents panel or whatever, in theory, will stay there forever.

      So yeah we’re ram bottlenecked as long as just giving 4 extra GB ram to my hardware made it that much faster…

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      Lol

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      I would say that in 2016 on Android people need at least 2GB of RAM, but anything beyond that depends on usage. I had this same argument with him the other day.

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      Are we still talking of RAM on phones are we? Can you reproduce your experiments on android phones?

      Storing a whole app in RAM is far from being efficient (no mocking, simply my opinion)
      Now imagine a offline GPS app with 1.7GB of maps of the whole USA going on RAM so when you can feel the speed when you open it.

      Truth is that if I go from NYC to Secaucus I only need about 50MB of map’s files and there’s no need to occupy the RAM with the maps of Los Angeles.

      Agree with you with importance of RAM and the more you give it to android the more it uses, but I disagree when you say that there’s “need” of more RAM (4-6 or even 8GB).
      On android the unused RAM is a wasted RAM

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      Agree, 2gb is the median value (of 2016 like you correctly pointed)
      Considering the Apps, the average use and where is android now everything above 3GB is pure marketing (from a Mediatek fanboy)

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      BTW, before the Meizu MX5 you had a MI4, Nubia Z7… All Mediatek phones right?

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      Could agree more, 3-4GB is more than most people will ever need on Android right now. (from an Elephone fanboy)

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      You Elephone and me Doogee (Rosalia is actually my wife)

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      As you know I have used many phones over the year but ones I actually owned long term are:

      Meizu MX5 – MTK X10
      Xiaomi Mi4 – SD801
      Nubia Z7 – SD801
      Gionee E7 – SD800
      iOcean X8 – MTK 6592? (can’t remember which chip exactly it was)
      Xiaomi Mi3 – SD800
      Nexus 4 – SD S4 Pro
      Blu Life Play – MT6582

      Before the 64 bit chips I was not a fan at all of Mediatek chips, GPS was terrible in them and performance was hit or miss. But with the newest one Mediatek has been excellent.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      The point of my experiment was to see whether there can truly be unused ram in android and depending of the kind of use this is impossible (at least in phones). I gave my Mi4 to the wife who makes very basic use. I’ve installed a very basic AOSP ROM since she doesn’t care about the camera performance and even with her most basic use, texting mostly, 2.3GB were still occupied at the end of the day. I’m looking to do the same experiment when Google would release a 4GB phone, I’m sure android would find a way to use all of it.

      The reason that I’m referring to the 6-8gb limit was because it was there that I indeed hit a wall. After a day of use my Remixed surface pro had almost 2GB or ram free. That’s the first time that I see Android not using all available ram (as available I call the total ram sans the amount reserved from android through the oom values). So it’s not out of a hat, it’s a real hard number that I found out of experimentation, granted I did not make a hard use, other people’s limit would be even further than that.

      Certainly 3GB is not enough though if my wife can top it (and probably 4 isn’t either)…

    • MattD
      February 5, 2016

      This side of Max really fit with his avatar… ๐Ÿ˜
      “watch out when you talk about linux, I’m mad!” (the pun is actually better in the movie’s original name, something like “…otherwise we get angry”, but i thought no one would have caught the reference, which is already hard to catch by itself ๐Ÿ˜)

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      2,3GB at the end of the day means that she can’t top it.
      Because in that count you have to put also the unnecessary old data that android still kept in there because it didn’t even get close to the limit to start cleaning up some space to give it to a newer task.
      Once you get to 3GB then Android is smart enough to erase the old unused data to free up room for the new process.

      To make an analogy:
      When I start to collect too much junk I think it’s time to get rid of it, you might find the solution on buying another shed.
      Different opinion I guess.

      In one of your previous comments you said that MIUI is heavy on RAM.
      MIUI behaviour follows the Android philosophy, the more data you store on RAM the faster and more efficient will me.
      People don’t realize that MIUI has a security center (antivirus), a cloud service with backup running at startup and many other services that AOSP doesn’t have, but they see this discrepancy of RAM as an issue.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      2.7gb is total. Around the 200mb mark it starts killing “open apps”. Last open app was about 200mb, killed it back to 400 mb free. It’s almost exactly the amount I used to see when I was using the phone too. 2.3gb to 2.5gb in fact was used at all times.

      Try it, no matter how much you load a phone there would always be 200-400mb “free”. Like I said , next phone would be a 4 gig one. I expect it parked at 3.3gigs (at least) even with my wife’s use.

      Depending on how aggressive ram management (oom values) is/are I expect all people to have a couple hundred MBs “free” at the end of each day. Hence why I think that to be the performance bottleneck of most/all phones. The effect is universal.

    • Michael Ogbonnaya
      February 5, 2016

      There is a difference between “WANTS” and “NEEDS” man. Keep your objective arguments. I am more a realistic person and go with what I find to be realistic and not wish to have aliens from Jupiter prepare and serve my dinner when I know that’s UTTERLY UNREALIZABLE.

      You are here whining about 4GB RAM and stuff, when the mighty iPhone is still using a 2GB RAM and no one is complaining about that.

      Yep, I know your next line of “OBJECTIVE ARGUMENT”… iOS and Android are completely different OS with different kernel.

      I find it completely STUPID that you, in your mighty geekiness does not understand that keeping so many apps in memory affects the overall performance of the device and also drains more power from the limited one being supplied by the battery. You also dont realize that some apps are CPU hogs and will continue to throttle your CPU even when you think you have minimized them into the background.

      Dude, learn to quit (I MEANT QUIT AND NOT MINIMIZE) apps you absolutely dont have any use of at the moment. You cant tell me you will leave a game running in the background for the next 24hrs just because you dont have the time to play it now. And do you think you are the biggest gamer here in GizChina? A lot of us do same too, but dont go about ranting about it.

      We all know that you have your millions of $$ stacked somewhere to purchase your 32GB RAM smartphone. But NO ONE wanna hear about it.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      BTW that’s obviously not what I think. I was speaking about ram management which you sidestepped.

      Constructive trolling I see … once again.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      Sorry for getting into your conversation but the figure you use is clearly pulled out of a hat. *Test* your beliefs, you’re often wrong.

      BTW I’m willing to to bet all your phones are around the OOM limit of open apps at the end of the day…

    • Guest
      February 5, 2016

      – Intermittent all caps doesn’t help

      – I don’t have millions, but just enough to spend on games and good devices

      – I never said I’m the biggest gamer on GizChina (or anywhere else for that matter). I just use my phone primarily for gaming, as odd as that may sound. (No consoles, had a PS1 ages back) And a decent amount of money on IGP.

      – Rant is what you interpret it as. I’m free to expression my opinion however I wish. Don’t like it, scroll past it instead of whining.

      – You don’t want to hear about it, that’s fair enough. Like I said, scroll past it, it’s effortless. But don’t come off a representative for everybody – NO ONE? Don’t think so, just you.

    • Guest
      February 5, 2016

      @disqus_0lJZ8Bi7SK:disqus
      First, I clarified the other day it was a major typo. I mentioned it, twice, so not sure why you took this on you.

      Second, the two people I mentioned earlier comprise an aged senior and his seemingly impoverished friend with extremely poor grammar, writing, humor and opinions.

      You were not a target of that list, although at this point I’m pretty sure you won’t believe this and I’m afraid I can’t convince you. Still, you’re not on my radar at any point, if this helps any, so don’t be too bothered or offended or even concerned with that list.

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      My believes are based entirely on testing. At the end of the say my phone is usually at around 1.5GB of RAM used. Not even close to OOM.

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      I am guessing I am one of those two people, if I am the “aging senior” that is just hilarious, because I am younger than MaxPower. But as posted below here is my phone history of recent:

      Meizu MX5 – MTK X10
      Xiaomi Mi4 – SD801
      Nubia Z7 – SD801
      Gionee E7 – SD800
      iOcean X8 – MTK 6592? (can’t remember which chip exactly it was)
      Xiaomi Mi3 – SD800
      Nexus 4 – SD S4 Pro
      Blu Life Play – MT6582

      For being a MTK fanboy, I sure have owned a lot of Qualcomm devices. The only SoC fanboy here is you.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      Yeah, 1.5GB is way too much, you must be using half an app or most probably kill your apps from the recents panel. It would be interesting to see a long term statistic of it, since it is very possible that it happened because a large app was killed last.

      Lastly I hope you’re not using Samsung ’cause Samsung is known to be very stringent with their killing behavior (or rather very liberal).

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      1.5 out of 3GB…

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      Yeah, my phone boots at 1GB utilization, add the sync services it gets close to the 1.3GB mark just for being there … So if your phone is anything like mine you mean to tell me that you use one app the whole day long, or many mini ones . I mean the math does not add up (that’s why I said you must be using half an app during the day). Either your phones kills all background apps on sight (only leaving the foreground one dealing with ram), or you kill your background apps by swiping them off of the screen.

      Honestly it’s hard for me to believe that your phone operates at 1.5gb of ram the whole day… Still I would honestly be interested to a log. If indeed your phone only utilizes so little ram it goes counter with ALL my observations, I would be happy to be proven wrong, if only by one sample…

    • MAHOGANY HD
      February 5, 2016

      This is hilarious!

    • POY
      February 5, 2016

      Yes I do. If the Linux kernel used more RAM than windows does how come people use Linux for embedded devices with 4mb RAM like routers? You seriously are misguided.

    • Lazar Prodanovic
      February 5, 2016

      It’s called a fragmentation & it’s tied to memory allocator. Up to 4.4 malloc whose used & it worked fine. From 5.0 new memory allocator is used that theoretically have better performance, smaller fragmentation & group (that can be shared) sessions. In practice it still doesn’t work well & have lost of memory leaks (thanks to other software), as much per app group sessions can help to get fragmentation down they will also consume more ram. That much about real practice.
      You get apps crashes not because data is corrupted but because memory allocator is over runned & can’t make a ram reclaim on time (or simply saying bad memory management) so system kills request because if it continues to run & get stuck it will trigger kernel panic (defense mechanism that triggers restart to avoid system freeze). A good memory management will leave enough of ram free for new requests to get loaded directly & avoid reclaims (that cost a lot of time) naturally this is not manageable always. When it gets to data integrity new generations of non violate storage / RAM will help when they finally emerge (like for instance 3D x point). Forget about ECC on small consumer SoC-s it will never happen. Curent RAM uses in SoC-s (DPL DDR3, DDR4) actually consumes a lot of energy so adding more chip’s will actually just increase power consumption (as it always works).

      Base fix for the ram problem is to do a kill of all not crucial apps once a week & second time a simple restart (in intervals between them in 3-4 day’s). Purgable kernel assets can also help a little.

    • Trayanee
      February 5, 2016

      To be honest, this is probably the only post I see that looks biased and fanboyish. Others are trying to be constructive.

      @Stef> Stop with that soft error nonsense. Everyone knows by know that its only marketing trick to sell overpriced ECC RAM. Sure, hard errors happen, but those happen in SSD, MMC etc. too, but the soft error rate in RAM is like what? 0,0002? Well, that one bit changed once a week is hardly a reason against having data in RAM to be accessed fast enough…

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      I never said that it uses more RAM, I said that it can make use of it (i.e. it doesn’t go to waste)…

    • Lazar Prodanovic
      February 5, 2016

      What are you talking about? Swap is not used on Android. Even if you enable & use it there are some limitations that don’t make it charming & won’t work as they do on Linux.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      I haven’t actually run (too) big programs on android so I wouldn’t know. But I have run them on server boxes, which is why I’ve been using ECC ram there….

      Having said that RAM, scales best when a new node is used (I was not talking of more chips but rather one where more ram was contained). So there’s much greater hope to get big amounts of ram in phones than it is to get server-grade processors. Basically that was part of my rant, I can live with a bit less processing power, but not with less ram.

      BTW having big amounts of ram (also) ensures that memory management would always leave enough ram for new calls, so I fail to see how this becoming priority won’t actually help more problems than one.

      Lastly yeah the malloc issue is a bottleneck of sorts, but scheduling android to kill long-lived apps once a week I won’t think that it will affect every-day performance. Maybe once a week your phone will feel slightly sluggish (until all assets/apps are loaded back to ram). But that would be an one-off thing.

      What happens now, is that this thing happens 20 times a days, certainly it kills a lot more battery, than just having a ram module being “always on” standing there…

    • POY
      February 5, 2016

      >I never said that it uses more RAM

      Uh, this is the exact thing you said:

      >Phones are using linux kernel so they *need* much more ram for its normal operations and speed.

      Stop changing your story

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      I meant that Android utilizes RAM better than Windows, therefore “needs” more (it will use all of it). Not that it is -necessarily- less efficient. You understood what I said the other way around…

    • Lazar Prodanovic
      February 5, 2016

      I ment it will resolve enough memory allocator fragmentation problem.

      About amount of RAM I obviously counted on same or possible amount that can be fit on one chip node so adding more means adding more chips.

      When new non violent memories become reality like for instance 3D XPoint ECC modules will become history. Currently the Intels server 3D XPoint memory modules are announced & shipping to selected costumers.
      Even the speed of 3D XPoint RAM is not on pair with DDR3, 4 it’s more than enough for costumer grade smartphone SoC-s & power requirements are much smaller with density on pair with current NAND nodes. So yes we do need more RAM on every damn machine but requirements ment to achieve this still must be met especially on lo power ones.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      I meant more in one chip by shrinking the existent ones. In other words instead of hunting 10nm SoCs we’re better off hunting 10nm RAM modules … anyway

      I was merely telling people that it would be more beneficiary to use more ram (therefore use power there), instead of more processing power. It will actually let storage out of the equation for most things and you *know* how slow EMMC storage is, by far the slowest calls to come to completion.

      So my point is “yeah, we need more ram”, but also “we need more ram, more than we need more CPU power”. You’d see people salivating here over the SoC used, but completely ignore that 3GB can actually bottleneck it as it would force it to make the long-round trip (RAM to CPU, CPU to Storage, Storage to RAM, instead of CPU to RAM and RAM to CPU)

    • NextHype
      February 5, 2016

      Are you planning on feeding the longest gizchina thread with balco and stef ?

      BTW i agree with the “3GB is ideal for a 2016 phone, 8GB is marketing” part.

      Even if i’m not a reference in knowing how different OS load and free RAM, I can’t really see what anyone can load in 8GB RAM from android apps functionalities…

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      That’s exactly that I said, swap is used on Linux where the whole page is written on persistent, on android only few important data are kept.

      I was arguing with him about the difference between android and Linux because he thinks is the same

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      I did… Obviously.
      Maybe people from Germany, France would have gotten as well

    • VMortens
      February 5, 2016

      This is classic trolling – and probably biggest EoT ever.
      Eristic – you’re not a champ here …

    • Lazar Prodanovic
      February 5, 2016

      Well that what we need is better interconnect so that we can use existing caches to the on bord SDRAM better (L2) this is accomplished with last gen of the ARM interconnect that no one still uses. We need more power efficient/faster storage/RAM that is also being accomplished with 3D XPoint & simular non violent RAM solutions that will come. Luckily 3D XPoint is Microns as much as it’s Intels & on current nodes it can scale up to 128GB that can be implemented on mobile SoC.
      Samsung talked about 10nm nodes for SDRAM couple day’s ago. As RAM cells structure is simple it always go ahead of complex SoC-s with lots of complex buildings blocks but don’t expect them in general consumer space in a long time now. It’s best practice when they can follow each other & can be integrated on SoC like HMB for instance. When the requirements are met that we can have lot of fast RAM with small latencies on SoC the new age will begin & it will be used for liquid tank scheduling (something alike Nv tried with Denver but it failed bad as conventional relatively small amount of latency high DDR3 used is not good enough for it).

      Worked with some up to 512 GB equipped scientific server’s in the past.

    • Lazar Prodanovic
      February 5, 2016

      Well there is lot of differences between Tham & I named up one of them. ๐Ÿ˜›

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      I still use Puppy Linux on an old laptop with 128MB RAM, it runs beautifully.

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      I’d like to know your point of view:
      Do you belong in that category that thinks that 3GB of RAM is not enough in 2016 and we need more and more like 6-8GB?

    • POY
      February 5, 2016

      Yeah exactly I hate how people like him are so confident in how wrong they are

    • MaxPower
      February 5, 2016

      Stef, please explain me why killing an app seems such awful thing to you?
      I use a navigation app in the morning and then when I came back home I don’t need it anymore. Guess what I do?
      I kill it.
      What’s the deal on keeping that App to occupy RAM?

      Real life and experiments are two different things

    • Lazar Prodanovic
      February 5, 2016

      Well it really depends what you gonna do with it. 1.5GB is enough so that it runs properly but if you add a lot’s of space waste framework & stuff & fuck up memory management even 3GB won’t be enough (like on S6 with early firmware). As the trend of adding more shits is global (in L. L. material design, floating functions & cetera, on M. Additionally pressure menu’s & other stuff along with trend of denser & denser displays with bigger & bigger assets) i think 2GB will be minimum, 3GB normal and for 2 or 4K display ones 4 or more GB. More RAM certainly won’t hurt you. Yust to remind you how longer browser Facebook session with videos & cetera can suck 4+ GB & to achieve something like that you don’t need to be a rocket scientist.
      Meanwhile I do think that 8GB is currently enough for usual user stuff regardless of platform so a dream come true for me would be a 4GB HMB divided into two GB liquid tank scheduler (for easier understanding let’s say it would act alike L3 cache) & two for GPU buffering backed up by secondary pool of 8GB of slower 3D XPoint RAM (to describe it simply as swap for easier understanding) from 16GB chip wile other 8GB of it would be used for buffering regular NAND. As this approach is currently to expensive we will have to wait more so that it becomes a reality even all described is possible & comercial available right now.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      If you actually had the memory to house it, why kill even that? The next morning it would instantly load and choose a new direction.

      It saves time not to to kill apps (if you have the memory size for them). BTW Google advice’s against it, they want us to let memory management do the killing.

      Having said the above it’s preferable to kill it nowadays so that to make space for other apps, but again, that’s all because you don’t have some ridiculously big amount of ram.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      Just one point if I may add. While it’s easier to shrink ram, the way people (the public) understands performance makes companies to pay more for SoC RnD/shrinking than memory shrinking.

      So despite having to be one step ahead (memory tech in phones) it often isn’t. Just open your phone and see which component is the most up to date. I bet you it’s the soc because of that ridiculous need of “more power, more cores , arrrggh”, all the while higher tech and more storage is needed for ram.

      I’ve said it in the past, I’ll say it again. Couple a mid range SoC with a “high end” RAM memory setup and you’ll get afar smoother experience in *phones*. Even with the relatively high latency of mobile ram it’s still far and ahead than emmc storage and not having to use it makes all the difference in the world. I’ve actually tried it and saw it with my own eyes.

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      ” I can’t really see what anyone can load in 8GB RAM from android apps functionalities”

      Basically everything you do on your phone. It will become a ramdisk of sorts. God why is it so hard for you people to understand this, it’s a simple argument. The only reason that it became so long is because you pull figures out of a hat.

      For example the 3GB is completely arbitrary. Have you actually measured it? Because I bet you you are bottlenecked and your emmc storage works ALL the time. Use an 8GB android device , see how everything happens instantaneously and then tell me 3GB is enough”

    • Stef
      February 6, 2016

      And I hate when you read something completely opposite than what I said. I’m going to tell you once again, hopefully you’ll understand it.

      1) Most Linux distributions (not necessarily Android) are more RAM efficient. I never disputed that

      2) Linux distibutions make better use of ram as everything you do is cached in memory.

      So putting 1 and 2 together. Linux can work with less ram, but needs more ram if you want to make complete use of its capabilities (basically building a ramdisk of sorts through caching).

      If I catch you trolling again I’m going to report you. Be warned.

    • Stef
      February 6, 2016

      I agree, I never disputed that, the user above -though- thought that that’s exactly what I disputed, I think he’s knowingly trolling though. So please respond to him with care, by our discussions I know you’re more thoughtful than that.

    • balcobomber25
      February 6, 2016

      I don’t think he is trolling at all, I think you have trouble separating the terms need and want.

    • balcobomber25
      February 6, 2016

      You’re going to report him for disagreeing with you?

    • Stef
      February 6, 2016

      He doesn’t disagree, that’s the point, we agree, yet he acts as if we don’t. I’ll report the trolling if it continues…

    • Stef
      February 6, 2016

      In fact I used a very frequent use of the word. The car “needs” petroil, does not imply that it is inefficient in doing so.

      Android can make use of all its ram, the more you give it, the more it will use, so it needs it. Windows Computers are not like that, which was exactly what I was referring to…

      Want can’t be used in this situation. An operating system cannot want anything.

    • balcobomber25
      February 6, 2016

      You should be careful going down that road. Lot’s of people could argue you are doing the same thing.

    • balcobomber25
      February 6, 2016

      A consumer can want more than he actually needs.

    • Stef
      February 6, 2016

      The problem I have with him in particular is that he doesn’t even tries to argue his point, he merely creates a strawman and mercilessly attacks it.

      I don’t do that, I don’t think I have anything to fear.

    • Stef
      February 6, 2016

      Indeed, but I never even tried to argue the point of view of the consumer.

      I only ever argued the pros and cons of different OSes and the way they use the resources. I don’t dabble with opinions only with facts.

      In other words what a consumer wants or needs is irrelevant to me. What is relevant to me is the *fact* that more RAM plays greater role than more processing power in an android system.

      That’s the only angle I ever argued for…

    • MattD
      February 6, 2016

      Haven’t you ever seen the tv show “person of interest”?! Programs can be a conscious, living thing! Killing them is awful indeed!

      Liek if u kry evritiem :'(

    • MaxPower
      February 6, 2016

      I have not watched it.
      Having a little one means that we can only watch cartoons lately.
      Ask me about Paw Patrol,Chugginton, and Peppa Pig and i can tell you everything!

    • MaxPower
      February 6, 2016

      So for the same logic I should keep with PC on all day long so I don’t have to wait for booting the next morning.

    • balcobomber25
      February 6, 2016

      No you argued specifically that phones need more RAM because they are Linux. That is the exception that he had. Android will perform better with more RAM but it isn’t a need, it is a want. I still use a 1GB Nexus 7 that works fine, it would be faster with more but it isn’t a need.

    • balcobomber25
      February 6, 2016

      He did argue his point, you just don’t agree with it.

    • Stef
      February 6, 2016

      A phone is on all day long, ram is an always-on component so you don’t use extra power to have it filled with relevant information instead of irrelevant. Like you said “unused ram is useless ram”. It will helps with your battery if your CPU only speak with ram if needed instead of the storage (less “roads to travel”, storage rarely needs to consume any battery, etc)

    • Stef
      February 6, 2016

      I argued that Android/Linux need more ram. In my later posts I explained that by that I mean that no matter how much you’ll give it will use it.

      Again operating systems don’t have wants.

      Yes your Nexus 7 works just fine, that was not the implication. The implication is that it would work much better if it had more ram.

      The same cannot be said with a Win98 computer (that’s why it was important that is using Linux’s ram management).

      I was clearly referencing that part by contrasting android, Linux and windows (many people here are Windows users, so they may not know f those).

    • Stef
      February 6, 2016

      His point is that I believe that Linux is inefficient even after I explained him that that’s not what I believe. Of course I didn’t agree with his assessment, it was a strawman.

      The trolling came that even though I corrected him, (by telling him that I agree that Linux machines are efficient and that he understood what I wrote the other way around), he continued posting that Linux is efficient (yeah I know, duh. I was making a comparison of Windows and Linux ram management, what anything else has to do with anything?

      BTW I account Linux more ram efficient -partly- *exactly* because it needs more ram… It makes better use of it, so…

    • MaxPower
      February 6, 2016

      You still didn’t get my point.
      Mine was an hyperbole.

      Keeping a service/app/program running to save those 2-3 seconds to open it again isn’t (in my opinion) smart

      You don’t know how that program could behave, there are good chances that it could not go to background, that could keep caching junk, that could keep the CPU working.

      Even Big enterprise Linux server kill services that are not required at that certain time, doing this way they don’t have to reboot the whole system frequently (which still happens once in a while, rarely, but still happens)

      RandomAccessMemory is not meant for the use you’re suggesting
      But hey, everybody uses his phone differently. Fair enough

    • Stef
      February 7, 2016

      Yeah, that was the conversation I had with Lazar. And there’s solution for that too. Once a week android can drop long-ran processes (as I’m sure -in fact it does anyway).

      The fact that memory was not build to play the role of storage doesn’t mean that it can’t eventually be that (for more things than one).

      For example now that RAM becomes cheaper and cheaper and it can finally house most of users’ processes that’s a very real use-case that is going to solve a million problems (the need for expensive storage, or for bigger batteries, etc).

      So yeah, I’m not saying that RAM should become a RAMdisk, but rather play a much bigger role. The experiment that I’m telling people to try is to install RemixOS on a 8GB+ PC and see how FAR faster Android becomes …

      Truth is that Android is a “consumption OS”. It needs fast forms of storage more than it needs fast processing.

      In fact in anything *other* than games a CPU mostly loads and unloads stuff from memory, it’s seriously underused, especially if you have great amounts of RAM.

      I hope I’m *now* understood instead of misunderstood (as I initially was).

      BTW it’s not just 1 second. It’s 1+ seconds times a thousands, because during the day you load and unload stuff from/to memory ALL-the-time because of RAM limitations that modern phones have.

    • Bailey
      February 7, 2016

      ooh what flav sweet or salt?

    • Bailey
      February 7, 2016

      That’s it i just spat my popcorn out i am laughing so hard right now

    • balcobomber25
      February 8, 2016

      sweet all the way for me!

    • NextHype
      February 11, 2016

      I always have free RAM (400-500 Mo out of 2Go) because i regularly kill unused apps. Why ? Because many apps operate background and eat battery like fucking cancer, and because i’m some kind of optimization freak (like a japanese blacksmith with his steel or a psycho milf on a diet with her calories).

      This allows me to have clean RAM, low battery consumption and still sync my personal and professional mails/calendar all day long without the fear of having 5% battery left @10PM.

      Your conception of RAM usage would lead us to build phones with as much RAM as ROM. I still don’t get it.

      BTW sorry for this late reply ^^

    • Stef
      February 11, 2016

      Backgrounding is part of an app’s lifecycle. Part of an app’s optimization is not to kill battery while it’s on background, in fact there are dedicated methods for that alone.

      Most Google services actually don’t (use much battery) even though they’re constantly on the background (you still get better battery if you uninstall them, but not by much).

      So it is true that cannot not lose battery while having apps in the background. What is also true is that it doesn’t have to be significant (the battery loss I mean). Say, an extra 10% between charges.

      Also you have to account how much battery you actually save by not calling the CPU/SoC all the time by having the app on the background. The gains are not as a great as to counteract the lost battery from “backgrounding” but enough to offset its “sting”.

      All in all, backgrounding -ideally- leads to a smoother experience. It’s one of the primary advantages of android over iOS and it saddens me that people often don’t take advantage on it when they use a “roomy” phone (say 4GB of RAM).

      Rogue apps of course may kill you battery, so it’s better to kill those in any case. Google -however- recommends never to kill any apps. So this “RAM as ROM” concept is very much in the intentions of Google as well.

      I suspect the reason that they’re so conservative with RAM size in their devices (they’re usually the last to adopt the larger sizes), is because they have yet to bring under control some of the emergent problems (not ideal RAM management is one, trespassing the OOM values slowing down the phone; battery leaks is the other).

      But eventually and increasingly that’s where we’re moving: “RAM as ROM” while you’re operating your phone…

  8. Joel Adames
    February 4, 2016

    EXPOILER ALERT !!!
    I really would like to see a brand have the guts put out to the market A SUPERPHONE like this:

    A. 8gbRam
    B. 128Rom+ Sd-Reader
    C. 1.6pixel.size+OiS+triple.tone+Pdaf+20mpx main camera
    D.1.4pixel.size+pdaf+8mpx+dual.tone front camera
    E. 5000mah+ battery and good system optimization to make at least some good 7-9 OnScreenTime
    F. Rgb led notifications
    G. Good fast and accurate fingerprint reader
    H. FRONT FACING SPEAKERS (2+)
    I. Dedicated 2 stage camera button (great for selfies and stuff)
    J. 5.7″ superAmoled QHD screen and gorillaGlass6
    K. Hi-fi Audio aided by some other software optimization to get great audio
    L. Up-to-date USB tipe-stuff cable tech.
    M. Fast-Charge tech and wireless for those into that.
    N. Backlit buttons if the are present off the screen.
    O. Full networks antennas and WiFi tech and Bluetooth and stuFF for real World Wide use.
    P. Great multicore (8+) GPU chip
    Q. At least a decent SoC to run the show.
    R. Dual boot option, even if not installed at least unlocked bootloader for the owner to do whatever like match Windows 11? and Android 9 hahaha
    S. A good design not more that 9mm thick to fit all in, small bezels not necessarily bezel-less, maybe removable battery?

    OK you got the idea…. Now keep it going with what I missed and feel free to point out a decent price range for such a device including a premium for them on catering to us. I will say $700 dollars.

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      $700 would be a down payment for a phone like that lol.

    • Joel Adames
      February 5, 2016

      Could be yup. I think it’s feasible. And would be well deserved ??

    • NextHype
      February 5, 2016

      What’s with the 8GB RAM ?
      Are you planning on editing 4K video clip while loading porn in your browser and chatting with half ppl on earth ?
      c’mon…

      BTW if you can explain me how you’ll use your 8GB RAM, i’ll take back my lousy comment ๐Ÿ˜‰

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      Android caches everything you do … so basically … storage (a ramdisk of shorts).

      I’ve done it already to my “Remixed” Surface Pro 3, it leads to an incredibly fast experience as the EMMC (main storage) is rarely called. Basically it allows for a device to feel faaaar faster.

      It’s not realistic though -for the time being- the technology to put it there is very expensive. 4-6GB is a more realistic goal for current tech.

    • NextHype
      February 5, 2016

      I get your point, and i too would say 8GB is the best for a tablet. BTW i’m waiting for a reasonably priced Core M / 8GB RAM tablet to buy ASAP (thus allowing me to dump my X98).

      But i think we don’t have the same use of a tablet and a phone, and i’m pretty sure that, if you can point the heaviest RAM usage apps on your tablet, you’ll realize you don’t use them (or use them but not the same way) on your phone.

      hu hu

    • Stef
      February 5, 2016

      You asked in general “what the use of it would be” and I gave you one. Having said that, a lot of people do not go through 8GB of data so it may not benefit them.

      But others possibly do, for example browsing facebook which contains a lot of images, or having a game to the background (and then wanting to return to it without it ever loading again), or browsing the web and have 6 tabs open that you do not want to have them reloaded.

      It *is* possible that if your use is diverse enough to tally up to 8GB of data usage even on a phone. It’s probably not typical (even in my tablet use I could not top the 8GB mark), but not impossible. Maybe he’s one of those users (say uses a diverse amount of apps and he never wants them loading)…

    • Joel Adames
      February 5, 2016

      Hahahaha, there’s no fair explanation to buying a Mercedes-benz over a Kia when you just want to get from point A to point B.

      So this is all a bit of fiction in my list too. Anyways it it was anything it interested you I can see.
      And such a device would be very much future-proof for a fair good 2 to 3 years up the road even if presented late this year like october-november.

      I guess they won’t do it because no company is aiming for a product they can’t overRun next year with something “better”

      Maybe a company like VERTU would do something similar but their price range COULD reach in the tens of thousands .

      Cheers

    • Bailey
      February 7, 2016

      Yes there is a big reason to get a Mercedes-benz over a Kia if you can afford it. Yes both cars will get you to where you want to go but i am betting that they will feel and drive different whilst doing it. And your dream phone would be over $700 because if i convert that to the British pound it only about 482 that is less than the S6 when it came out? yea have to ask what will you be doing with 8gb Ram LOL

  9. Dante
    February 5, 2016

    sure mate , 64 gb of ram

    • February 5, 2016

      I wish ๐Ÿ™ thanks though ๐Ÿ˜‰

  10. Dante
    February 5, 2016

    sure mate , 64 gb of ram

    • Yash Garg
      February 5, 2016

      I wish ๐Ÿ™ thanks though ๐Ÿ˜‰

  11. VMortens
    February 5, 2016

    5.7inch screen in a Mi5?? I honestly doubt it.

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      GFX Bench always messes up the display size. It will be between 5.0-5.5 inches, most likely 5.2.

      • Joel Adames
        February 5, 2016

        Hahahaha my “small” Pure XL shows up at 4.65″ tou go figure!! Hahaha

    • February 5, 2016

      It won’t.

    • MattD
      February 5, 2016

      Yes, mi5 is going to be 5.7 inch and op2, mate 8, mate s and many others are all 4.6 inch… ?

      Gfx is highly unreliable about screen size, but it’s funny to see compact-screen-nazis freaking out when it says a bigger value and, insteas, jacking off when it says that 4.6″ usual value ?

    • Karly Johnston
      February 6, 2016

      It will be 5 just like the Mi3 and Mi4. The Note line is for big screens.

  12. seyed
    February 5, 2016

    boring as fuck…

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      You come to a website about Chinese phones to say that Chinese phone news is boring? For most of us here this month is better than Christmas, all the new phones are announced or leaked.

      • February 5, 2016

        With you completely Balco

  13. VMortens
    February 5, 2016

    5.7inch screen in a Mi5?? I honestly doubt it.

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      GFX Bench always messes up the display size. It will be between 5.0-5.5 inches, most likely 5.2.

    • Yash Garg
      February 5, 2016

      It won’t.

    • MattD
      February 5, 2016

      Yes, mi5 is going to be 5.7 inch and op2, mate 8, mate s and many others are all 4.6 inch… ๐Ÿ˜

      Gfx is highly unreliable about screen size, but it’s funny to see compact-screen-nazis freaking out when it says a bigger value and, instead, jacking off when it says that 4.6″ usual value ๐Ÿ˜

    • Joel Adames
      February 5, 2016

      Hahahaha my “small” Pure XL shows up at 4.65″ tou go figure!! Hahaha

    • Karly Johnston
      February 7, 2016

      It will be 5 just like the Mi3 and Mi4. The Note line is for big screens.

  14. Guest
    February 5, 2016

    boring as fuck…

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      You come to a website about Chinese phones to say that Chinese phone news is boring? For most of us here this month is better than Christmas, all the new phones are announced or leaked.

    • Mobyspace
      February 5, 2016

      With you completely Balco

  15. Nishikanta
    February 5, 2016

    5.7 inch and fhd and 3 GB ??????????????

    • balcobomber25
      February 5, 2016

      5.7 is more than likely false, GFX Bench always messes up display size. 2K display isn’t needed in a phone of this size, it’s a waste of money and resources.

  16. Nishikanta
    February 5, 2016

    5.7 inch and fhd and 3 GB ??????????????

    • balcobomber25
      February 6, 2016

      5.7 is more than likely false, GFX Bench always messes up display size. 2K display isn’t needed in a phone of this size, it’s a waste of money and resources.

  17. Steven Fox
    February 6, 2016

    Dang, this phone will be an absolute beast, was gonna wait for the Honor 8 before I switch phones, but this looks mighty tempting.
    All now comes down to the camera for me.

  18. Steven Fox
    February 6, 2016

    Dang, this phone will be an absolute beast, was gonna wait for the Honor 8 before I switch phones, but this looks mighty tempting.
    All now comes down to the camera for me.